Total Cookie Protection
https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/02/23/total-cookie-protection/
todsacerdoti · 5 years ago
66 comments
https://blog.mozilla.org/security/2021/02/23/total-cookie-protection/
todsacerdoti · 5 years ago
66 comments
AbuAssar · 5 years ago
Total Cookie Protection creates a separate cookie jar for each website you visit.
why this is not the default behavior already?
SamWhited · 5 years ago
Because it breaks a lot of things like SSO providers (although I completely agree with you, screw that, make it the default and add exceptions as necessary like Mozilla is doing now).
LinuxBender · 5 years ago
Could a site fix this by delegating a subdomain or CNAME to the SSO provider like sso-company.example.com so that the cookie is still using the same domain, but pointing the IP to the SSO provider? Assuming the SSO provider supports this, that is. I believe OKTA supports this method.
lancesells · 5 years ago
I believe so. That is what ad tech companies are now doing to get past the improved privacy measures.
cratermoon · 5 years ago
That is the preferred solution if you're using cookies across a company.
ficklepickle · 5 years ago
I regularly use nginx to reverse proxy third-party API calls. I use it to protect API keys.
In my case, I strip all cookies and sensitive headers. One must keep in mind that the browser will treat it as a first-party request and the security implications that has. You may have to filter or modify cookies/headers.
https://jeremypoole.ca/posts/protecting_api_keys_on_the_fron...
hinkley · 5 years ago
I mean effectively today hardware you or your boss owns is doing most of the work of tracking yourself.
This is making them have to allocate resources to achieve the same effect. Like taking lojack off of your car and phone, and making 'Them' have to tail you and scour security footage like in the old days. It's more expensive. Expensive things do not scale, so you have to prioritize who is worth the cost. People who are under legitimate suspicion of causing harm. Less 'by-catch' to use a commercial fishing concept.
When it's cheap to harass everyone, nobody is 'safe'. But when terrorists can't be tracked at all, nobody is 'safe' either. So we have checks and balances.
merb · 5 years ago
well sso providers would still work, if it was made correctly? sso works without cookies. if I implement google sso I would not login via the google supercookie
wdb · 5 years ago
Most seem to require a cookie to the pin the session or to match the passed state
merb · 5 years ago
there is a state parameter? so If I want to have a cookie that passes stuff, I can just store my stuff inside a cookie and pass the stuff inside the state param, there are so many possibilites via openid (which is super easy), I do not know how saml2 works, which might be different tough.
worstenbrood · 5 years ago
saml also has a relaystate parameter
wdb · 5 years ago
yes, but the solutions I have seen they seem to store the state also in a cookie and then check against it on the redirect that it didn't change
hinkley · 5 years ago
I know of a token system that some questionable engineers started pushing session state into and since it shipped before anyone noticed, walking that back turned out to be quite a chore. What was supposed to be a couple hundred byte cookie started hitting max cookie length warnings in other parts of the system.
When people need to keep a door open, if they don't see a doorstop in the immediate vicinity after two seconds of looking, some will just use whatever heavy object that is closest and consider the problem 'solved' instead of managed.
I needed data, I didn't know where to put it, this thing can give me data, boom, solved.
andor · 5 years ago
At least based on my usage, it breaks very few sites.
SSO via OAuth still works fine, because OAuth uses redirects instead of cookies.
koolba · 5 years ago
Not only does redirect based login work, it's an inherently better model than sharing cookies.
With shared cookies nothing stops site A from taking a copy of your cookie and using it to impersonate you on site B. With redirect based login the identity provider has to authorize each application that is being accessed and each site has its own session cookies.
The main problem is dealing with globally revoking access but that's usually solved with shorter termed session cookies that periodically need to be refreshed from the identity provider.
adrr · 5 years ago
Site A can’t access 3rd party cookies. Cookies only can be accessed by the domain they are created on. Otherwise any site could toss a 1x1 image pointing to any website and steal the cookies.
zxcvbn4038 · 5 years ago
Not a huge loss, if you depend on federated logins its just a matter of time until Google or Facebook's algorithms decide to ban your account without explanation or recourse and then how do your users access your site? All you'll be able to do is try to shame the companies on social media and hope enough people are outraged that the company takes notice.
ratherbefuddled · 5 years ago
I've had third party cookies completely disabled for years, and first party cookies only allowed by exception. It works fine on everything I use except for whatever it was Atlassian were (are?) doing with their very odd collection of about two dozen domains they round tripped through on authentication.
To be honest though, browser fingerprinting makes this mostly irrelevant unless you carefully use a script blocker with a whitelist too. Any domain that includes trackers that drop third party cookies almost certainly includes scripts that can fingerprint you and send results to a server without using a third party cookie.
stilisstuk · 5 years ago
(A bit of OT)... which is why I am considering SPAs to be complicit in 'evilness'. All these webpages that require js for no real reason is generally making the web insecure and implicitly hostile and difficulty to navigate. Very few have the mental overhead to evaluate each site, so most just let any page do what ever it wants. Tracking and miners be damned.
edeion · 5 years ago
SPA: single page application (I actually had to look it up... Shame on me.)
dastx · 5 years ago
Weirdly for me Atlassian doesn't work when I have the spoof referrer enabled in about:config. Like why does referrer, a property that is a header, define whether my login is valid or not?
roywiggins · 5 years ago
I had the same problem and tracked it down to uMatrix's quite reasonable spoof-referrer default, which breaks nothing else. Just Atlassian's sign-in, which seems to bounce you around to several domains before it lets you in.
nl · 5 years ago
I've worked on (non-Atlassian) SSO projects where the provider used the referrer to send the client to the page-after-logout (and occasionally page-after-login) if they weren't set as parameters in some circumstances.
Here's a reference to a F5 device providing SAML SSO services and having a similar issue:
https://www.devcentral.f5.com/s/question/0D51T00007npfjw/chr...
ratherbefuddled · 5 years ago
I actually had a member of Atlassian's "security dev team" tell me in a support ticket I opened about being unable to login with referer headers disabled that:
> since we cannot discount the possibility of malicious users programatically generating tokens and forcing them upon users, we check the referer header to ensure that the request chain was initiated in the one place that we're comfortable with: id.atlassian.com
Make of that what you will.
dastx · 5 years ago
Providing this is the reason Atlassian uses the referrer, then this seems reasonable usage. Thanks for clarifying!
Thorrez · 5 years ago
Some sites use referer for CSRF protection. If they do that an you spoof your referer, they think you're being CSRF attacked and block it.
codezero · 5 years ago
This is just my hunch as I work in analytics and deal with cookies a lot but both Salesforce and Atlassian appear to intentionally trade off the third party inconvenience because their products are enterprise (you have to log in for work) and they rely on upsell/cross sell across their products which they host on different top level domains. So forcing the third party cookie helps immensely with their sales and retention, and doesn't hurt usage because it's often required for work and if you need to work around it, you usually can find a way if you are so inclined.
If they had used the same domain for their products historically and just separate subdomains they wouldn't have to make this trade off, but it probably also helps with third-party ad networks/segmentation to get folks to turn it on anyways.
SamWhited · 5 years ago
> makes this mostly irrelevant
Solving a problem isn't irrelevant just because there are other problems; there's definitely more to do, but this still has value.
lordlimecat · 5 years ago
Bearer tokens via post parameters seems a lot easier / less problematic than cookies.
sodality2 · 5 years ago
Disabling cross site cookies breaks many sites.
enriquto · 5 years ago
sounds like a desirable feature to me
sodality2 · 5 years ago
Agreed, that's why I use it!
candiddevmike · 5 years ago
It's a shame because local storage and friends aren't quite as secure (no way to block all JS from accessing it like you can with cookies).
gruez · 5 years ago
Is this really an issue? If the attacker has XSS on your site you're already screwed because they can manipulate the DOM to simulate user actions.
staticassertion · 5 years ago
It means they can't exfiltrate the cookie, which I think is a pretty nice win, even if they can still perform requests to the domain with that cookie.
For one thing it means they're locked to my session.
isbvhodnvemrwvn · 5 years ago
How would they steal HTTP-only cookies this way?
minitech · 5 years ago
They wouldn’t steal the cookie, they’d just have the script send the requests as the user directly.
mvolfik · 5 years ago
What would be the point of localstorage if JS couldn't access it? Cookies can be set and get via http headers, but is localstorage available by other means than JS?
ficklepickle · 5 years ago
No, it is only accessible from JS. Parent comment does not make sense.
By that logic, we should turn off our computers to improve security.
marshmallow_12 · 5 years ago
why?
sodality2 · 5 years ago
Good question. third party login sites mostly don't keep me logged in, kick me out, doesn't let me log in, etc.
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
Give us some real concrete examples. This does not match my experience at all so I'm dubious.
sodality2 · 5 years ago
I have trouble with google login (url must be copied into a google tab) and oracle cloud loses my tenancy home region every few minutes (https://i.imgur.com/ZCsepq3.png). Several other examples like LMS's that use O365 to log in must be manually logged in every time
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
I use both Google and O365 at the educational institutions I work at and both platforms works fine across a wide variety of applications. Strange that you are experiencing these issues.
sodality2 · 5 years ago
My settings: https://i.imgur.com/8X1a7gs.png
driverdan · 5 years ago
No it does not. I've had 3rd party cookies disabled for as long as I can remember. I've found less than five sites that had issues.
sodality2 · 5 years ago
I guess we use different sites then. I should specify I mean it doesn't keep me logged in. I consider this breaking because if I click a link to that site, it loses the original context once logged in.
adrr · 5 years ago
It's going to break all 3rd party social layer providers. Most news sites don't have native comments and rely on a 3rd party like a Disqus. Login in state is stored as a cookie. It also going to break all the openID stuff that is heavily used in organizations like Walmart. OpenID is all based around cookies. I remember having to rebuild our provider when Safari released an update that you can't set 3rd party cookies without user interaction.
aczerepinski · 5 years ago
What did you do instead? Redirects?
kreeben · 5 years ago
>> It's going to break all 3rd party social layer providers
Good. Disqus had it too easy.
>> It also going to break [..]
Good. They had it too easy.
I'm absolutely loving the fact that my switch to Firefox is paying off. Finally!
adrr · 5 years ago
That type of attitude toward the millions of users that use discus just shows why Firefox is a dying browser with ever decreasing install base. Funding will keep decreasing as it is tied to search engine deals which is based in active users.
kreeben · 5 years ago
Anything that shields me to some extent from the "grab money fast, before anyone notices we're fucking them over" companies out there is a champion, as far as I'm concerned.
nyolfen · 5 years ago
there are valid criticisms of firefox but breaking disqus is a bizarre one. when is the last time you used it? my impressions is that these days the literal majority of content produced on it is spam and it's been this way for the better part of the last decade
nuker · 5 years ago
> Funding will keep decreasing as it is tied to search engine deals
Good. They had it too easy. I'd pay $20 for clean version of FFX on Mac/iOS App Store.
r00fus · 5 years ago
No Firefox is dying because browsers aren't a product anymore they're a feature of the OS.
Thank Microsoft, Google and Apple for that.
jjav · 5 years ago
Same. I've always had 3rd party cookies disabled for as long as the option has existed (which is a long, long time). Never noticed any problem to me.
abdullahkhalids · 5 years ago
The only sites that really break are organizational websites, which you can whitelist anyway.
NikolaeVarius · 5 years ago
No one but idiots like me wants to figure out how to unbreak every other site they go to.
happymellon · 5 years ago
What sites does it break for you?
arbitrage · 5 years ago
People have been asking that question for twenty-five years.
deugtniet · 5 years ago
Mozilla is really fighting the good fight for the users privacy. I've been using Firefox for as long as I can remember, even when there were faster and more fancy alternatives available. Their ideology and service to the user is what makes me loyal to them
pastrami_panda · 5 years ago
> even when there were faster and more fancy alternatives available
This seems to indicates there's not faster alternatives around anymore, but the last time I tried FF (4-6 months ago) I couldn't make the transition because the lag was pretty obvious when coming from Chrome based browsers. Is this not the case anymore?
moritonal · 5 years ago
No. I still use Firefox, but when I use Edge or Chrome it hurts a bit just how much snappier they are.
mFixman · 5 years ago
I think this might be more about perception than anything else.
I've used Firefox since 2006, and Chrome always seemed heavier, laggier and uglier. Maybe it's the snappy iOS-like animation when you scroll to the bottom of the page that makes it seem snappier?
jan_g · 5 years ago
It's not imaginary - for years Firefox drained battery on macbooks really fast. Then there is this pesky issue of randomly freezing whole laptop for a minute or so, usually associated with file uploads or locking screen [1], [2], [3], ... Fixed in one version, then appears again in the next version.
I still used Firefox a lot for various reasons (and still do), but I'm not blind to how it performed.
[1] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1595998 [2] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1415923 [3] https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1489785
ptato · 5 years ago
How much faster is it for you guys? I legitimately can not tell the difference.
tempest_ · 5 years ago
I find them to be close enough to imperceptible for just normal html and css etc.
The stumbling block for me as FireFox user is I am increasingly bumping into web apps that preform poorly in FF but are fine in Chrome for one reason or another. One instance I bump into a lot is ElasticSearches Kibana runs like trash in FF for some reason.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
It sounds like the old "nobody uses Firefox because nobody tests on Firefox because nobody uses Firefox" vicious cycle, unfortunately.
cortesoft · 5 years ago
I am guessing performance differences might be masked by good hardware? Sometimes performance differences don't show up until you use an underpowered machine.
foerbert · 5 years ago
I don't think it's just that. I have a half-dead Chromebook with linux, and I use Firefox on it. Some years back I ran Chrome on it because it worked better, but at some point I started seeing issues with Chrome and tried Firefox again. I've been using Firefox since.
bartvk · 5 years ago
Did you see lag on all websites? Or in specific instances? Which platform and on what kind of hardware?
DangerousPie · 5 years ago
I use Firefox and Chrome at the same time and I don't really notice any difference. Maybe a bit for Google apps (Hangouts, Docs, Meet, etc) but I just see that as a symptom of Google's attempts at using their market dominance to harm competitors, which makes me want to use Firefox even more.
jk7tarYZAQNpTQa · 5 years ago
It seems to me that Google is always trying to make their products run much slower on browsers that aren't Chrome.
cratermoon · 5 years ago
It's unlikely they put any effort into intentionally make them run slower, it's just that they are written to work optimally on Chrome and minor differences in the behavior of things like the V8 vs. SpiderMonkey and Blink vs Gecko. Given that each one is written with different tradeoffs, it's not surprising things perform differently.
Whether or not the Google programmers use specific proprietary knowledge about the behavior of Chrome to optimize performance is different. If they do, that would be similar to the things that got Microsoft in trouble.
clankyclanker · 5 years ago
I'd agree with you, except for Google's long and sordid history of doing exactly that, time and time again (found with a 30-second search):
https://tech.co/news/google-slowed-youtube-firefox-edge-2019...
https://www.techspot.com/news/79672-google-accused-sabotagin...
https://www.zdnet.com/article/former-mozilla-exec-google-has...
Google knows that every time they release a Firefox bug, FF's user percentage goes down a tiny bit. Repeat over dozens of bugs, for years, and you have a strategy.
There's one blog post from another Mozillian that I can't find anywhere that came out within the last year with other examples, I think it was on HN.
ficklepickle · 5 years ago
I read that post. It was enough to convince me of malice at the time. I don't have the link though.
bscphil · 5 years ago
> There's one blog post from another Mozillian that I can't find anywhere
You are looking for https://web.archive.org/web/20180728122724if_/https://twitte...
samstave · 5 years ago
What is your opinion of Brave Browser.
I use Brave + Ublock exclusively.
DangerousPie · 5 years ago
I haven't tried Brave, never understood the point of it. What does Brave + uBlock offer you that Firefox + uBlock doesn't?
BrendanEich · 5 years ago
I hope you mean uBlock Origin.
Brave and uBO share filter tech and we aim to make uBO unnecessary (this may require setting shields to aggressive). We do much more than any extension can do, and Google has made it clear they will further restrict extension APIs.
https://www.theregister.com/2019/05/29/google_webrequest_api...
https://brave.com/privacy-updates-7/ (latest in series)
DangerousPie · 5 years ago
What does Google restricting APIs in Chrome have to do with Firefox? I haven't heard of any plans like that from them.
usernameak · 5 years ago
Firefox has had same API as Chrome for a while.
hiq · 5 years ago
Did you have ublock origin installed on Firefox?
I feel that most people complaining about slow browsers have no blocker installed.
sodality2 · 5 years ago
My CPU immediately pumps to 100% usage after opening google docs. Granted, it's on my old laptop, but I can use electron apps and they run far better than gdocs.
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
Interesting, I have uBlock Origin and indeed I can't tell the difference between Chrome and Firefox.
Sodman · 5 years ago
Firefox is fine and quick as long as you don't need to use any heavy Google apps. Some people might even consider this a plus. For me, between work and personal use I'm effectively married to Gmail, Google Calendar, Google Docs, and Google Hangouts. Unfortunately that makes Firefox a non-starter for me. Not to mention Firefox's privacy settings trigger countless reCAPTCHA gates across most of GSuite. I get that this is not Firefox's "fault" and it's done intentionally by Google, but as a user it becomes my problem.
I really want Firefox to work for me and I'd love to drop Chrome, but last time FF made big noise about performance improvements I tried it out and Gmail was still unusably slow.
jakemal · 5 years ago
FWIW I use all of those apps on a daily basis with Firefox and have not noticed any performance issues. It may be worth giving it another try if you haven't in a while.
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
Indeed. Hangouts is one I find works better in Firefox even! But I observe it seems to vary. Perhaps Intel Macs has some quirks that makes it more peformant and reliable in Firefox.
hojjat12000 · 5 years ago
I switched to FF when Quantum came out. I use it exclusively. Not because I hate Chrome, but because I don't see any need for chrome. Once in a while I see a website that forces me to use something other than FF. But it happens rarely, and it is mostly some webgl-based under-development demo website.
I even use it on my phone. The mobile version is definitely worse than Chrome, but it has plugins (or it used to! nowadays it only support a few popular ones which is a shame) and also I can send tabs from my phone to my computer (which is a better place to read articles anyways).
koningrobot · 5 years ago
I switched back to Firefox last week and I had the same experience -- Google apps and Slack were dog slow. But after a day or so they were working fine, I imagine it's a matter of populating the cache. YMMV.
chociej · 5 years ago
Have not ever noticed any performance problems using FF for Google products, personally. Works great.
neogodless · 5 years ago
I use Google Calendar and Google Docs without any issues in Firefox. I agree Gmail is coded terribly and do not use the web site! I stick to using Thunderbird on the computer, and checking email on my phone. Have not been using Hangouts for a couple years, though.
For me, the way Google is keeping Gmail terrible for other browsers is exactly the reason to not use Chrome. No way I'm OK with that.
Abishek_Muthian · 5 years ago
It also depends upon the operating system among several other variables,
I didn't find noticeable difference between FF and Chrome based browsers(Vivaldi, Edge) on macOS(although Safari runs circles around them) after using them extensively. I used each of them for a separate project with several common websites loaded in them, there were different quirks for each browser(especially reg tab hibernation) but latency was not one of them.
On Linux FF seems definitely faster than Chromium, although there are occasional DNS errors which stops loading the web pages altogether(likely result of my own doing). I've stopped having different browsers for different projects and just use FF for all.
On Android with Chrome, not just Chrome but even WebView using it is astonishingly fast(e.g. DDG browser), I presume it's because of data saver feature. On de-googled android like LineageOS, FF/Fennec seems to be on same level as Chromium and DDG is faster here as well.
On iOS, everything is Safari.
I don't use Windows much, but I've seen others mentioning Edge seems to be faster than Chrome recently.
Sohcahtoa82 · 5 years ago
I switched from Chrome to Firefox about a year and a half ago. Chrome definitely felt more snappy, but the difference wasn't that much.
Except on Facebook. My Facebook tab is incredibly laggy, and gets more and more laggy the longer I leave it open. I'm one of those users that tends to keep 50+ tabs open, and I have to close and reopen the Facebook tab at least once a day to keep it from becoming a nearly frozen mess. Even then, if a video is playing and I click it to make it fill the window, it takes several seconds for it to happen. And with an i9-9900K, 32 GB of RAM, RTX 3080, and a 1 TB NVMe drive, my computer is definitely no slouch.
kaba0 · 5 years ago
But facebook is a pile of... like I have a screenshot of FF’s task manager showing facebook using 800 MB of memory!
In a way I see it as a win, I really really hate opening it on desktop.
behnamoh · 5 years ago
I've noticed that Firefox has become even snappier than Chrome.
One big advantage is that I now have way more addons installed on Firefox that would otherwise make Chrome utterly slow and unusable.
FlashBlaze · 5 years ago
I have tried regular as well as the developer version of Firefox, but no matter what I use, YouTube videos always skip frames after every 10-15 seconds or so. So I use Brave for YouTube and other WebGL heavy stuff and Firefox developer version for daily browsing.
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
That sounds very strange. Certainly don't see that in Firefox on Mac (work laptop) and both Linux and Windows (personal laptop). Try adding the h.264 extension. That forces YouTube to provide h.264 videos which is hardware accelerated on pretty much any hardware.
behnamoh · 5 years ago
Adding that extension disables 4k video on YouTube.
FlashBlaze · 5 years ago
Tried the addon. Still nothing. I have also tried clean installing Firefox with no addons, but same issue.
hojjat12000 · 5 years ago
I don't know if you're on Linux. But I had issues with Youtube as well. Two things helped me an updated graphics driver and Wayland.
FlashBlaze · 5 years ago
I'm on Windows 10 with latest drivers for Nvidia 1050Ti. Still the same issue.
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
Keep in mind that Firefox opens their website on first run and on every update and that includes Google Analytics.
I find the majority of their privacy claims dubious and dangerously misleading for those that don't know any better. If they were serious about privacy they'd offer uBlock Origin (or equivalent functionality) preinstalled by default.
Their current countermeasures such as containers, tracking protection and this cookie thing is trivial to bypass with browser fingerprinting and IP address tracking if you have a global view of the Internet (which Facebook and Google do have).
koheripbal · 5 years ago
What do you think of enabling letterboxing, uBlock, and DoH to prevent fingerprinting?
Are there any other config changes you would recommend to Firefox to harden it?
chungy · 5 years ago
> Keep in mind that Firefox opens their website [...] on every update
I haven't experienced this since the rapid release schedule started. They're pretty silent now.
igobyterry · 5 years ago
Not only that, but Firefox for US users will track what websites you visit to target their discover campaign content.
cpeterso · 5 years ago
From Mozilla's Firefox New Tab FAQ:
"neither Mozilla nor Pocket ever receives a copy of your browser history. When personalization does occur, recommendations rely on a process of story sorting and filtering that happens locally in your personal copy of Firefox."
https://help.getpocket.com/article/1142-firefox-new-tab-reco...
godshatter · 5 years ago
I modified the settings long ago to come up with a blank tab on startup. I use NoScript and do not allow google analytics through. No facebook domains make it through NoScript as far as javascript is concerned, very few google ones do.
I get you about the updates. It's a risk-reward ratio I accept because firefox + noscript + always starting in a private session is way more helpful than the update problem is harmful. Using a VPN a lot of the time helps, too. There is no solution I know of that is perfect. My threat model is pretty relaxed, though, so what I do is mostly for my peace of mind. You have reminded me that I should start spoofing my user agent again.
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
I don't disagree that it's possible to configure Firefox to respect your privacy. I myself use it sometimes and have a similar configuration.
But it is extremely misleading for them to be shouting "privacy" at every opportunity while the truth is that their browser leaks personal data like a sieve in the default configuration. This would give a false sense of security to non-technical people who don't have the skills to see through these lies.
kaba0 · 5 years ago
And here are the FUD-spreaders yet again, that instead of the tiny “bad” things like some form of harmless analytics (it is not even that) they would run towards the goddamn gate of Hell itself. Like, what do you imagine chrome does? Or do you think brave have eveything removed? It’s the exact same browser with different name and logo and preinstalled adblocker..
Sorry for the somewhat angry comment, but I honestly can’t understand this mentality.
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
Google Analytics isn't harmless though. It's giving a single party a wide view on the entire Internet (thus the ability to circumvent cookie-based tracking by just using IP addresses and heuristics) and said party makes its money by tracking people online.
I'm not saying Chrome is any better, but at least Chrome doesn't toot the "privacy" horn at every opportunity.
Brave does have some kind of blocker built-in which might actually help even if it's not perfect.
njdullea · 5 years ago
I thought TCP was a pretty common thing?
njdullea · 5 years ago
It's official: hacker news has no sense of humor
metalliqaz · 5 years ago
more good stuff from Firefox. I'd be more excited if so many of the sites I visit didn't break on a non-Chromium browser.
nerdponx · 5 years ago
I just hope Mozilla Corp doesn't do any further harm to Mozilla Foundation and Firefox keeps getting better.
falcolas · 5 years ago
Sigh. Yeah.
My company only officially supports Chrome. Why? Because most users only browse via chrome. Why? Because my company only officially supports chrome…
heywire · 5 years ago
Do you have any good examples of sites that don’t work on Firefox? I hear this a lot, but I don’t seem to experience it. I exclusively use Firefox on the desktop, while I use Safari on mobile.
metalliqaz · 5 years ago
most of the time the sites "work". Issues are usually in one of two categories: (1) bad/ugly layout, (2) failure to login properly. Occasionally, web apps for smaller organizations will just stop me at the door due to my User Agent string.
eMGm4D0zgUAVXc7 · 5 years ago
What's the difference to setting "privacy.firstparty.isolate = true"?
And what's the migration path for users who have been using that setting previously?
Can I now disable it? Do I have to disable it?
grishka · 5 years ago
Why not just do away with third-party cookies altogether already?
agildehaus · 5 years ago
We're on the road to that.
grishka · 5 years ago
I mean, why are all these lengthy intermediate steps necessary? It's only a matter of changing the default value of one damn setting. I've had third-party cookies disabled for more than a year and the only websites I've had problems with were ridiculously poorly-made ones — like AliExpress, that for some reason has a zillion subdomains and relies on third-party cookies for authentication.
behringer · 5 years ago
because you're fighting the ad industry. The ad industry which also has their own browser and tells grandma whenever she searches about problems with cookies that there's a "better" browser out there.
It's google. I'm talking about google.
igetspam · 5 years ago
Precisely. Google is an ad behemoth AND has the majority of the market of browsers. If Firefox (or Safari of Opera or etc) changes to something that breaks Google but Chrome doesn't, they'll just get more of the market. For non chromium browsers to survive, they have to play a long game and show people why these changes are important. People are happy to sacrifice privacy for convienience, unfortunately.
nuker · 5 years ago
> If Firefox (or Safari of Opera or etc) changes to something that breaks Google but Chrome doesn't, they'll just get more of the market.
Not on iOS
bzbarsky · 5 years ago
I have third-party cookies disabled, and have for years. A non-exhaustive list of sites where I have login or other problems as a result:
1) One of my local banks (who use weird third-party hosted modules for some of their functionality).
2) Verizon.
3) T-Mobile
If I were a normal user, any one of these ("I have to do _what_ to see my FIOS bill?") could be a show-stopper.
Which is what makes it hard to turn this on by default without driving away users.
grishka · 5 years ago
On the other hand, if third-party cookies were going away for real, this would force website developers to finally fix their crap.
Karunamon · 5 years ago
Leads to a prisoner's dilemma situation. A move like that has to be done by everyone in concert (example: killing Flash), or it's harmful to the one browser that blinks first.
This thread contains plenty of examples of legitimate uses for third-party cookies. If FF instantly and immediately broke those, users would be cursing, not praising Firefox, and switching to a browser that doesn't break what they use.
notpushkin · 5 years ago
Can't we whitelist some of third-party cookies for the transition period?
bzbarsky · 5 years ago
If they were going away for real across all browsers, yes.
Historically getting some browsers on board with that program has been very difficult.
Concretely: a large fraction of website developers would much rather put up "only works in Chrome" notices than fix their crap.
[Disclaimer: I used to work at Mozilla, and have done my share of trying to push for turning off third-party cookies.]
bpicolo · 5 years ago
> relies on third-party cookies for authentication
A lot of websites depends on this via auth0, cloud identity, cognito... and the experience becomes subtly broken in a way that you need to be extremely technically savvy (a developer that has a whole lot of auth experience) to understand.
faitswulff · 5 years ago
It's funny you note that the only website that had issues was a top 50 website (https://www.alexa.com/siteinfo/aliexpress.com#section_traffi...) that no doubt has a lot of ordinary non-technical folk on it. Breaking sites like these would likely kill an already relatively niche browser.
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
It breaks non-tracking functionality for embedded things on the web as currently implemented in major browsers, in particular, which is one of the largest use cases.
mvolfik · 5 years ago
What's an example of this?
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
Signing into a website through an iframe redirects you back to a sign in page inexplicably if the post-signin page requires a cookie.
Another example is you're signed into website A, and while on website B, iframes to website A behave in such a way that you're not signed in, and you cannot sign in.
michaelt · 5 years ago
If you disable third-party cookies, you can't download files or view videos in Google Drive without a workaround.
This is because the download is from googleusercontent.com while your browser remains at drive.google.com the whole time - and to download private files, googleusercontent.com expects you to have a login cookie. If you block third-party cookies the download gets stuck in a redirect loop, sending you to get a cookie over and over again.
Google is aware of this but hasn't fixed it.
MaxBarraclough · 5 years ago
Safari already does this by default, if I understand correctly.
endisneigh · 5 years ago
I really, really like Firefox, but this is basically what happens when I try to get people to use Firefox (and yes, I do actually try to get people to use Firefox):
E: Hey use Firefox!
O: OK, I'll give it a try!
O: Hey, why doesn't X site work properly with Firefox?
Firefox: Introduces something making it more likely that another site doesn't work
O: Hey, now Y site doesn't work either!
E: Hey, just wait a second you can-
O: Sorry, I don't have time for this, I'm switching back to Chrome.
IMHO - Firefox's #1 priority should be making sure every site in the the first 10,000 of Alexa work equally as well with Firefox as it does with Chrome, period.
What good is amazing privacy stuff if your userbase is rapidly dwindling?
list of sites that don't work (many, if not most of these work on Chrome without issue):
https://webcompat.com/issues?page=1&per_page=50&state=open&s...
andor · 5 years ago
Which sites don't work for you?
Even GSuite works better for me in Firefox. Slides stays smooth even when scrolling through large presentations and it never locks up (like Chrome does).
happymellon · 5 years ago
Excel via Office online is a bit funky for me.
zaik · 5 years ago
Microsoft Teams is Chrome only. A good reason not to use it.
aninteger · 5 years ago
Cisco Webex is a repeat offender. The experience is much better in Chromium. If I am using Firefox I have to dial in to a meeting using my phone instead of being able to use my USB headset.
gosslot · 5 years ago
What sites are people visiting? I've used Firefox for over a decade and yet have to run into any kind of issue like this.
simias · 5 years ago
I've been using Firefox as my main browser for a long time and over the past couple of years I noticed an uptick in websites that wouldn't work lest I used Chromium. For instance last week I had to use a crappy HSBC website that wouldn't let me login in Firefox (it would just hang) while it worked in Chromium.
It's still very minor and I can't even come up with a 2nd example off the top of my head but it does definitely happen from time to time.
If anything these few cases only makes me value Firefox even more, I don't want to enable the Chrome monopoly.
needz · 5 years ago
Ebay works on and off for me. I often have to resort to Safari
_flux · 5 years ago
What kind of problems are these? I've never used anything but Firefox on Ebay.
needz · 5 years ago
"Unsupported browser" messages when attempting to login on both desktop firefox and mobile firefox.
Hjfrf · 5 years ago
Why is this a complaint at Firefox, and not at Google for abusing their monopoly to create new features on a whim regardless of what it does to other browsers?
pdanpdan · 5 years ago
I suppose because some of them are in the standard and not implemented in other browsers. Or there are some 20 year old bugs (reported) that are not fixed while pocket and robot are featured.
woodrowbarlow · 5 years ago
settings that are known to break websites are disabled in the default configuration, and labeled clearly in the settings pane.
firefox doesn't exist to "win" the browser wars. it doesn't even exist to give users the best possible browsing experience, although that's certainly a primary goal and in my experience they're doing well.
the #1 reason that firefox exists is so that mozilla can have a seat at the WHATWG table -- because very important decisions about the fabric of the world wide web happen there, and the other seats all belong to apple, google, and microsoft.
mozilla is the closest thing we (the users -- not just firefox users, but all web users) have to a "representative" in the WHATWG, because mozilla doesn't answer to shareholders.
> What good is amazing privacy stuff if your userbase is rapidly dwindling?
aside from a noticeable dip when the new chromium-edge started shipping with windows, firefox browser usage on desktop has been pretty steady for the past 5 years.
the value in adding privacy features is that it solidifies a certain use of the protocols, making it harder for WHATWG to make spec changes that undermine the provided security.
roboman · 5 years ago
Does anyone know of a good comparison between FF and Brave regarding both security and privacy?
topspin · 5 years ago
This site appears to provide a reasonable analysis of all the common browsers. It was mentioned on HN a year ago to zero comments. Chrome is completely indifferent to prevailing privacy compromises. Brave is locked down pretty hard. This one is amusing: "Brave: Add noise to Canvas, WebGL and AudioContext APIs to make fingerprinting more difficult"
I don't think it's been updated yet for this new Firefox feature.
OJFord · 5 years ago
Nice, sounds like I can get rid of the extension I use to toggle `privacy.firstparty.isolate`.
> In addition, Total Cookie Protection makes a limited exception for cross-site cookies when they are needed for non-tracking purposes, such as those used by popular third-party login providers. Only when Total Cookie Protection detects that you intend to use a provider, will it give that provider permission to use a cross-site cookie specifically for the site you’re currently visiting. Such momentary exceptions allow for strong privacy protection without affecting your browsing experience.
That's exactly why I have to toggle it. Anyone that uses auth0, and many publications sites (follow a link to a PDF, get redirected to `/cookie-absent` instead) fall foul.
dvfjsdhgfv · 5 years ago
Moreover, I've heard loud voices before that controlling 3rd party cookies will break login providers - guess what, it turned out if there is a will, there is a way.
thinkharderdev · 5 years ago
I find this very annoying. An OpenID Connect provider is perfectly capable of working without using third-party cookies. The only reason they need them is to allow OIDC authentication without actually redirecting to the provider (by using a hidden iframe to do the OIDC flow on the same site). But if 3rd-party cookies are disabled it should just fall back to the normal OIDC redirect.
jsmith45 · 5 years ago
The OIDC front channel signout functionality relies on third party cookies to work properly. This feature has the IDP basically loading your app's end session page in a hidden iframe.
Similarly the OpenID Connect Session Management feature (check_session_iframe) also depends on the ability to use third party cookies.
This functionality is needed to be able to detect if user logged out from front-end code without relying on having any back end code that could receive either a front-channel or back-channel signout notification and send it back.
In the absence of that a pure SPA with no backend could only detect the logout if access tokens are stateful, and they get an error message back that the token refers to an ended session.
Some people get really cranky if a single sign out feature does not actually sign you out of everything.
thinkharderdev · 5 years ago
Sorry you're right. I was just thinking about sign in. But at the same time it seems like the cat is already out of the bag on this one. Safari already blocks all third party cookies by default and it seems like other browsers are moving in the same direction.
laurensr · 5 years ago
So if I happen to run a less popular third-party login provider, my platform will break and I will need to lobby for an exception...?
matt-attack · 5 years ago
No. There’s no hard coded list. You get the same heuristics as everyone.
rsync · 5 years ago
"Nice, sounds like I can get rid of the extension I use to toggle `privacy.firstparty.isolate` ..."
Forgive me ... do I understand that there is a true/false setting in Firefox named "privacy.firstparty.isolate" that you like to toggle from time to time ... and you use an extension to do that ?
I don't do much browser customization and use only one extension (uBlock Origin) but ... couldn't I toggle a single Firefox setting with a simple command line ?
Why would you need an extension to do that ?
Genuinely curious ...
OJFord · 5 years ago
Toggling it manually requires going to about:config, and searching for it.
On startup it's enabled (i.e. do isolate) via a config file, so I could change it there with a shell script. I think though that I'd have to restart Firefox for it to take effect.
The extension gives me a handy button in the toolbar that's red (danger) when it's off (i.e. not isolating) that I can just click to toggle.
Yes it's a tiny job for an extension, but do one thing well right? Also, to be honest, it's easier that it's there than switching to or pulling up a new shell.
Afk to confirm, but pretty sure this is the one I use: https://github.com/mozfreddyb/webext-firstpartyisolation
OscarCunningham · 5 years ago
Does this make Firefox's containers unnecessary?
goalieca · 5 years ago
I’ve had a miserable time with Putting Google in a container and switching over SSO.
happymellon · 5 years ago
It depends on your usecase. Containers for me has nothing to do with this.
I use containers for sites like AWS where it doesn't understand the concept that I might want to switch regions or accounts but only in some tabs so that I can work on multiple parts of the network.
This obviously does nothing for that.
gruez · 5 years ago
There are other use cases for containers besides third party cookie isolation. If you want to have two separate sessions for a site, you'd still need containers.
als0 · 5 years ago
Private windows can let you do that, so you don't really need containers.
daveFNbuck · 5 years ago
Having containers means you don't have to log in every time, and you can have multiple sessions open in different tabs in the same window.
magicalhippo · 5 years ago
I have multiple sites like Github, Dropbox etc where I have multiple accounts I'd like to access separately. Typically private account vs work account, but also other scenarios.
Containers makes this a breeze.
In addition, at least Firefox only has a single private session. So if I open a site in one private window and another in a different one, they're in the same session, sharing cookies etc. Not so with different containers.
happymellon · 5 years ago
I find this a horrible usecase for me, I keep my password managers separate from my work provided one and my personal one. Containers don't solve this, and I use profiles, which I have to be thankful for MultiFirefox for fixing it. But only on MacOS.
I don't understand why fixing profiles isn't a priority, I find the usecase for them is completely different to containers which are awesome in a completely different way.
pityJuke · 5 years ago
I use Containers to make sites have no stored memories of me. Most sites I open, a new, temporary container (extension required) for that visit, and swiftly deleted afterwards.
All my YouTube views are firmly disassociated from my account, so recommendations will only be impacted based on geographic data. News sites can't remember if I've been there before, other than using IP addresses.
xPaw · 5 years ago
Does this also break add-ons communicating from other site to another using a background script?
candiddevmike · 5 years ago
With all of the cookie protections and in app privacy settings, is highly targeted advertising becoming less effective? If targeted advertising is less effective, will the advertising giants need to provide a disclaimer when you try doing it? Will it lower ad prices?
Or will it take regulations to remove targeted ads?
nine_k · 5 years ago
Cross-domain ads possibly become less effective.
OTOH on-premises ads, like inside Facebook, or on Google's results page, should remain pretty targeted.
jackewiehose · 5 years ago
And what about fingerprinting? What is this good for if you can be tracked so easily anyway?
At least cookies give you some control. The alternative seems worse.
MR4D · 5 years ago
I’ve heard the whole name for this is Total Cookie Protection/Identity Protection, or TCP/IP for short.
/j
4cao · 5 years ago
> Total Cookie Protection makes a limited exception for cross-site cookies when they are needed for non-tracking purposes, such as those used by popular third-party login providers.
Would be great to have some more details about it: in particular, how do I turn it off if I prefer to add any exceptions manually.
Edit 1: Mozilla Hacks blog [1] has a bit more but still doesn't answer the question:
> In order to resolve these compatibility issues of State Partitioning, we allow the state to be unpartitioned in certain cases. When unpartitioning is taking effect, we will stop using double-keying and revert the ordinary (first-party) key.
What are these "certain cases?"
Edit 2: Reading on, there's this bit about storage access grants heuristics [2] linked from the blog. But is that really it, or is there a hardcoded whitelist as well? If so, it'd be great to see it.
This bit in particular is ambiguous in how it's supposed to work exactly (who's "we" here):
> If we discover that an origin is abusing this heuristic to gain tracking access, that origin will have the additional requirement that it must have received user interaction as a first party within the past 30 days.
1. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2021/02/introducing-state-partitio...
2. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Pri...
kome · 5 years ago
> Would be great to have some more details about it: in particular, how do I turn it off if I prefer to add any exceptions manually.
(on mac) Firefox > Preferences > Privacy & Security > Custom
4cao · 5 years ago
The question is how to use "Total Cookie Protection" without any hardcoded or heuristics-based exceptions.
Your answer seems to be about how to turn off "Enhanced Tracking Protection"/"Total Cookie Protection" or parts of it (resulting in weaker protection). I want to keep it enabled and disable the exceptions (for stronger protection), i.e. the opposite.
I haven't installed the new version yet, so can't say for sure, but as far as I know there is no setting for this in that menu. [1]
If I misunderstood what you meant, please elaborate.
1. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/enhanced-tracking-prote...
Caligatio · 5 years ago
I agree I wish they had more detail about the exceptions.
I've been a FPI user for years as a best-effort to reign in tracking but there are a common few sites that just break with FPI (50% of the time PayPal checkout doesn't work). Even if "Total Cookie Protection" is only 98% as effective as FPI, I'm making the switch.
EDIT: FPI = first-party isolation
johannh · 5 years ago
Yes, it’s essentially that, FPI with workarounds for common breakage. You should switch from FPI, this is essentially another take on FPI by some of its original developers, so it should have fewer issues overall, not just site breakage.
lentil_soup · 5 years ago
FPI?
iruoy · 5 years ago
First-Party Isolation
mrweasel · 5 years ago
It will be interesting to see how many sites break with “Total Cookie Protection”. Currently I use what I consider are bare minimum of anti-tracking, that is what I can make Firefox provide on its own, plus the DuckDuckGo browser extention. Those two things alone break an alarming number of sites. The DDG extention is pretty regularly mistaken for an ad-blocker.
Given Firefoxs low adoption, I fear that website owner will just ignore that their excessive tracking breaks their site in Firefox... “Works in Chrome... good enough”
kiwijamo · 5 years ago
I have strict tracking enabled in Firefox as well as uBlock Origin and I've yet to see a site broken. The only "broken" ones I've seen are badly coded ones that also fail to work in Chrome. Reputable sites tend to be just fine. YMMV.
ficklepickle · 5 years ago
FF blocked fingerprinting by visa during a transaction. To my surprise, even that did not break.
johannh · 5 years ago
(I’m one of the developers of this feature and co-author of the blog posts)
This is a great question and I’m glad you found the answer, you probably understand that for many blog posts we avoid going into too much technical detail.
To answer your final question, there is no hardcoded allow-list for State Partitioning. The heuristics as described on MDN are accurate.
4cao · 5 years ago
Thank you for your clarification, and your work on Firefox.
I guess that clears it up.
stavros · 5 years ago
Have you considered using something like Expounder (https://skorokithakis.github.io/expounder/) in your posts? (Disclosure, I made it but it's a small open source lib).
I don't see why we can have full-blown web apps but our text needs to be very specifically just text these days.
atleta · 5 years ago
Cool! I've been thinking of a similar solution to add to my (planned ;) ) longer blog posts. I'm guilty of going into the details too much sometimes.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Same here, and I didn't like the tradeoff, so I figured I'd solve it with the power of T E C H N O L O G Y.
withinboredom · 5 years ago
This looks amazing. Would you mind if I packaged this in a WordPress plugin?
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Not at all, go for it!
withinboredom · 5 years ago
Awesome. Just a heads up, I've already finished it and just submitted it. HOWEVER, the plugin has to be licensed as GPLv2, but it shouldn't affect your license (since it's just using your code as a library). I'd feel better about it (and it will probably be smoother sailing during the review process) if I could submit your names as authors on the plugin.
If you want to be listed as an author, just drop over to https://github.com/withinboredom/expounder-wordpress/tree/ma... and let me know your wordpress.org user names in an issue.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Thanks! I don't think either of us have a Wordpress username, but it'd be great if you could include a link to the repo in the description.
Thanks again for your help!
withinboredom · 5 years ago
Will do!
accounted · 5 years ago
I would like this as well, please share once you do.
withinboredom · 5 years ago
I've submitted it to the WordPress.org plugins directory, but you can download it right now from the repo in the sibling comment.
chrisweekly · 5 years ago
Yes, this! Your lib looks awesome. Thanks for publishing it and sharing here!
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Thank you!
tpoacher · 5 years ago
I love this, but I'm a bit surprised that you do not include the ability to "unexpound" an "expounded" term. Is that intentional?
If I were reading a technical text, I would definitely end up reading most paragraphs at least twice. It would make no sense to keep the expounded terms in the second time; I'd be tempted to hide them back as soon as I was finished with them the first time.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Yes, it is intentional. The functionality actually exists, it's just not mentioned:
https://github.com/skorokithakis/expounder/blob/master/examp...
It's because, once clicked, the new text should become part of the old, and that's it. Presumably you've already read it, and I don't want to make the viewer have to re-collapse the links every time.
Your use case makes sense, though, which is why the feature was included. Maybe I should mention it in the README.
mkl · 5 years ago
I think collapsing would also be useful when all you need is a quick reminder, not a full explanation. Like "What's that again? [click to expand] Oh that's right [click to collapse]". That's easier than finding the place to skip to.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Hmm, true, I've added it to the README!
tannhaeuser · 5 years ago
Hasn't HTML the summary and details elements for this specifically, or am I overlooking something?
StavrosK · 5 years ago
As far as I know, those work quite differently.
tpoacher · 5 years ago
Not the author, but presumably you're overlooking the fact that the expounded term doesn't necessarily have to be "inside" or even "neighbouring" to the details element.
The author's intent here is to have terms explained in the text explicitly in such a way that it would 'augment' the text with an explanation somewhere further down the line, but not necessarily "in-place".
It is also intended for text specifically, rather than replacing one element with another.
I agree that display/summary are similar in spirit though, I had not come across those before.
gwern · 5 years ago
<abbr>/<defn> are also quite relevant, and would fit a number of the example uses better (like the definition of 'atoms').
wonder_er · 5 years ago
This is super cool!
I've only recently discovered that Markdown has footnotes, and I've gone to down adding footnotes everywhere.
I use Jekyll + markdown on my website, and I now have lots of fun adding footnotes to my writing.
I added a "footnote tutorial" for readers on https://josh.works/turing-backend-prep-01-intro#why-this-rub..., to help them learn how to navigate the footnotes.
I _love_ your library, and I love the problem that you're solving with it.
Along the way, I've looked at Gwern's sidenotes[0] and Nate Berkapec's "footnotes"/sidenotes [1].
I eventually want to do something more "in-line", like what you've down with Expounder, but I've been satiated with markdown footnotes for now.
[0]: https://www.gwern.net/Sidenotes# [1]: https://www.nateberkopec.com/blog/2017/03/10/how-i-made-self...
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Thank you! I used to use footnotes too, but I didn't like how they took you out of the flow of the text. Expounder aims to specifically let users stay in the flow of reading, which is why one of the core instructions is that the text should work in context, as if it were never hidden.
ghaff · 5 years ago
I miss footnotes on the printed page because, in addition to references (where they're probably better as endnotes to be honest) I find they're great to use for parentheticals that bulletproof a point, add some background that's not essential to a point being made, etc. But these latter uses work significantly less well in a blog post or ebook.
mrec · 5 years ago
It's good to see experiments along these lines. I really like Wikipedia's recent-ish rich tooltips on link mouseover, and the HTML <summary>/<details> elements deserve to be more widely known.
From the demo it look as if Expounder is one-way - once you've expanded something, you can't collapse it again. Is that correct?
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Yes and no, see this comment:
gknoy · 5 years ago
Oh, wow. The Sidenotes discussion from Gwern that you linked is _phenomenal_. Thank you for sharing these.
iFreilicht · 5 years ago
What I dislike about footnotes like that is that they pollute the browser history. If you want to leave the page but clicked on a few footnotes and their backlinks, you have to go “back” through all of them.
Thank you so much for posting gwern’s sidenote article! I want to use sidenotes on my site and this was a very valuable resource!
psychoslave · 5 years ago
Back button usually come with an unfoldable list of jump points.
I am more ennoyed by how the jump points are turned into a useless feature by so many javascript out there which load new content without impacting the browsing history.
prox · 5 years ago
I wonder what this does to SEO, does the hidden text get indexed, and is it not picked up as a dark pattern by crawlers?
clankyclanker · 5 years ago
Is there support for an expound-all button on a page? I definitely have days where I just want to also read the details and don’t want to click a dozen times while I’m reading.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Not currently, but it shouldn't be hard to add a button with one line of JS to add the required CSS class to all the elements. This might defeat the purpose, though, as it's kind of intended to save you from reading things you already know.
samstave · 5 years ago
That is FN DOPE. Wikipedia should adopt it in full.
gostsamo · 5 years ago
Hi, can you consider adding some accessibility to the library? Currently, I don't have a way to know that a term could be expanded, because the signal seems to be visual only and not detectable via a screen reader. Adding aria-pressed might be the solution, but I'm not an expert, just an user.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
Oh, that's a good point! I didn't realize it wouldn't be discoverable, you're right.
gostsamo · 5 years ago
Thanks!
dmix · 5 years ago
I feel like the inserted text should be highlighted with a light yellow background or some indicator. Just appearing like that inline seems a bit funky or unexpected.
But I see there is a css class which is nice.
Just a simple rgba(x,x,x,0.5) where the x’s are the usual yellow height.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
I prefer to leave the styling to the user, the library is intentionally minimally invasive there...
wikibob · 5 years ago
I agree with this. It would be helpful.
7800 · 5 years ago
I know that you didn’t mean to completely throw the conversation from Firefox to Expounder, but you succeeded.
Mozilla who? That’s where we are now.
psychoslave · 5 years ago
I like how it unfold the text, but it doesn't give visual hint on what was unfolded, and doesn't provide a way to fold it again, it seems.
Be it topographic emphasize or coloring, there should be an hint. And clicking the text thus emphasized should collapse it.
That's my opinion, otherwise, nice done.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
It should animate the text while unfolding, but, other than that, there's no need to know what was unfolded. You just click what you don't know and eventually read the relevant info!
amai · 5 years ago
Why use this instead of footnotes? For example in these Feynman lectures below the footnotes and references to formulas and images activate then you hover over it. These footnote can even include graphics and formulas.
StavrosK · 5 years ago
To me, footnotes serve a different purpose, e.g. linking to papers, like the Feynman lectures site does. Expounder is more about indicating that you don't know something, so the text itself can change to accommodate you.
heleninboodler · 5 years ago
Have you considered that "Total Cookie Protection / Isolation Partition" would be a much better name? :D
appleflaxen · 5 years ago
> you probably understand that for many blog posts we avoid going into too much technical detail.
Not really... for a highly technical issue like this, at a minimum you should link to the technical details.
There really is no excuse for making every reader of your blog who wants to know the details dig for them independently.
imo, at least.
johannh · 5 years ago
Both the more technical blog post as well as the MDN page are linked shortly after that paragraph.
urza · 5 years ago
This should have always been the only way it worked. Plus it should be easier to create white lists of allowed websites and all other cookies delete with every broswer restart. I know it is possible with Firefox but you need to add websites to whitelist manually in deep settings. At least there are some extensions that make it easier, like CookieAutoDelete https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autode...
rock_artist · 5 years ago
What I wonder/concern is how can one decide for legit use. This also sounds like a possibility for discriminating small players with legit use. (similar to Microsoft's SmartScreen)
Would be great to know how are those concerns handled?
mjevans · 5 years ago
I would like something like, each site by default gets a bucket by name.
If cookies from another bucket should be shared with other sites, or might be seen when requested by a cross-site load from another site, ask the user a four choice question.
"Allow (site) to see cookies from (site)?"
Always Allow, Just this time, Ask later, Always Deny
laurensr · 5 years ago
So if I happen to run a less popular third-party login provider, my fate is sealed?
johannh · 5 years ago
No, there’s no allow-list, you get the same heuristics as described on that MDN page.
nuker · 5 years ago
> Total Cookie Protection makes a limited exception for cross-site cookies when they are needed for non-tracking purposes, such as those used by popular third-party login providers.
Facebook and Google will be excepted? This makes it a joke, sadly.
cmonnow · 5 years ago
This is basically Google (Chrome) paying Mozilla (Firefox) to kill 3rd party cookies because Google has a better way to fingerprint users without 3rd party cookies, because they have SO MUCH data about us.
This move is aimed at killing other AdTech companies which rely on 3rd party cookies to track users.
They painting this as a 'PRIVACY' move, after they have already found other ways of tracking users across websites and devices.
matheusmoreira · 5 years ago
It's still a good thing though. Better to be tracked by one company than a whole industry.
nuker · 5 years ago
One company is the whole industry, Google
Daho0n · 5 years ago
No. There's no whitelist. RTFM.
nuker · 5 years ago
I did not say whitelisted, I said popular.
thayne · 5 years ago
I wish there was something better than cookies for these use cases. But then, designing something that can't be abused for tracking, that empowers all the legitimate use cases is also really hard, maybe even impossible.
johnchristopher · 5 years ago
Total Cookie Protection ? Great, I wish it will solve my year long problem of Firefox eating my cookies and session when it silently updates itself. /rant
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
They don't spell it out here, but I wonder if this means that third-party embedded web software requires the Storage Access API now.
It's not particularly fun to implement. It's not hard, but the heuristics are enough of a nudge that it can create weird experiences for users.
"I thought I already signed in, but after I navigate, I have to click sign in again, and a window pops up and then I'm automatically signed in? Why?"
Edit: Yeah, seems so.
https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Mozilla/Firefox/Pri...
See also: https://webkit.org/blog/8124/introducing-storage-access-api/
MikusR · 5 years ago
Does it also work with Google (company that pays hundreds of millions to Mozilla) cookies?
pulse7 · 5 years ago
Psssssst... don't talk loud about this...
oblio · 5 years ago
It's open source, you can literally check it and drop (or not) the tinfoil hat.
qwerty456127 · 5 years ago
> Total Cookie Protection creates a separate cookie jar for each website you visit.
This should have always been the only way it worked. Every website should run like if it was opened in a separate browser.
> third-party login providers
Don't use these, it's a trap.
cj · 5 years ago
> Don't use these, it's a trap.
Except if you're setting up SSO for your company's employees. Using a 3rd party login provider is a necessity. You shouldn't trust employees to create unique / strong passwords for every individual service they login to.
randomsearch · 5 years ago
Would a password manager solve that problem?
hellcow · 5 years ago
If you can enforce that they use the password manager, it solves that one problem.
But SSO centralizes access management. For instance, with one switch I can set password requirements, require 2FA, and grant/revoke access to all of an employee's services when they join the company or leave.
petre · 5 years ago
I'm sure there are ways to use 2FA or OTP without externalising access management to Facebook, Google or another SSO provoder, unless you want to pick convenience over privacy and security.
cratermoon · 5 years ago
There are, but writing your own authn/authz is about as wise as writing your own cipher. https://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram/archives/1998/1015.html...
petre · 5 years ago
I'm talking about using a library like privacyID3A or something else, not writing your own.
lordlimecat · 5 years ago
How do you centralized your authn, your 2fa provisioning? How do you ensure that your cloud native apps have access to the auth backend without risking exposing the wrong ports on the wrong vpc?
cratermoon · 5 years ago
Just adding a library to application code is not sufficient. What I mean is that organizations should not roll their own SSO provider. At the very least, work with one of the many companies that offer it as a product or service. If your threat model requires it, you can host the product on premises.
SilverRed · 5 years ago
How do you enforce it over a bunch of 3rd party software which either doesn't support 2FA or doesn't support enforcing it? If they support SSO which they usually do, its a non issue.
folbec · 5 years ago
Not really, at scale.
SSO is a must in any big organisation, there are tens or hundred of applications.
People are incredibly and consistently bad with security. You really need a way to be able to cancel all accesses in one swoop for any individual.
foepys · 5 years ago
Not only that. As a user it's incredibly frustrating entering a password 5 or more times each morning. This results in users using extremely weak passwords.
The same is true for forcing users to reset their password every 50 days or so, by the way. This outdated password guideline doesn't seem to die. I know way to many cases where people are using a weak base password with a number attached to it because they got sick of trying to remember a new password every month.
baq · 5 years ago
> The same is true for forcing users to reset their password every 50 days or so, by the way. This outdated password guideline doesn't seem to die. I know way to many cases where people are using a weak base password with a number attached to it because they got sick of trying to remember a new password every month.
there are people who actually invent a new password every time instead of cycling numbers?
also, change password a few times until history is flushed and switch back to the same password you started with is a thing.
folbec · 5 years ago
Well, sadly this rule about password aging made its way into some regulations. We know it is idiotic, but it is the law.
adrr · 5 years ago
SSO is more than password management. It is instant provisioning and deprovisioning of users. Role management and auditing. Enforcement of security standards like 2FA in a central place.
yladiz · 5 years ago
Not really relevant for the specific topic, but to be more precise, SSO is only the sign on part. Usually the provisioning/de-provisioning is handled by SCIM, which is related but distinct. You have some SaaS products that offer SSO but not SCIM, for example.
adrr · 5 years ago
Curious what IDP service doesn't provide SCIM and just SSO. Doesn't SAML 2.0 have SCIM support?
yladiz · 5 years ago
Sorry, I should have been more clear. When I typed SaaS products I meant more about a non-IDP product. They might support SSO but not SCIM-based account provisioning, especially if it's in-house auth (not using something like Auth0). I worked on a product that supported SSO but not SCIM for a long time and not all SCIM features were supported.
samstave · 5 years ago
Who is the best SSO provider?
Where can I learn about best SSO practice/implementation?
adrr · 5 years ago
Okta is my favorite. One Login is cheaper but have never used it.
comprev · 5 years ago
I've used Okta to provide gateway access to physical devices and AWS roles in the same deployment. Very impressive when every endpoint and SaaS product is behind a single 2FA login.
koheripbal · 5 years ago
No because you want to be able to offboard/disable those accounts without having to manually do it for each one.
Frondo · 5 years ago
Or if you're setting up a SaaS application where some of your customers will want integration with their own SSO. We don't have developer time to spare implementing that sort of thing but Auth0 lets us do it as one of its built-in integrations.
It lets us offer SSO with whatever Auth0 supports as a freebie add-on, instead of "well, we could work with your platform but it's gonna cost you."
I don't see how it's a trap, except that we have to pay auth0 a monthly fee to handle our authentications instead of having some number of hours a month spent maintaining and securing our customers' logins and integrations.
sintaxi · 5 years ago
I don't see why OAuth doesn't solve this problem for you.
amitparikh · 5 years ago
For what it's worth, I find third-party logins (e.g. Spotify via Facebook) to be a nice convenience feature that I use quite often.
woodrowbarlow · 5 years ago
i don't think anyone would deny that third party logins are convenient -- either from the user perspective or from the developer perspective. but they are also a huge vector for privacy-invasive ad-profiling, if that's the login provider's business model.
saddlerustle · 5 years ago
I'd bet for the average user privacy impact of tracking is much less significant that the privacy impact of constant account compromises.
woodrowbarlow · 5 years ago
that is true, but that is virtually always because of password re-use. if you use a password manager and randomly-generated passwords unique to each service, this is almost entirely mitigated.
with a single third party login for all services, though, if that third party account gets compromised the results are catastrophic.
haberman · 5 years ago
> with a single third party login for all services, though, if that third party account gets compromised the results are catastrophic.
The same can be said of the password manager account. It's turtles all the way down.
The fact that we rely on users to not reuse passwords, the fact that using a password manager is all but required to get reasonable security despite being far from convenient, these indicate a major failure to serve the actual needs of users, in my view.
Users have head space for 1-3 strong passwords. They can tolerate carrying maybe 1 security token with them. They can tolerate a little bit of security setup when using a new device for the first time, and they can tolerate a touch or fingerprint scan at authentication time. All authentication systems can and should operate within these parameters.
No web site or app outside of an authentication provider should ever present a user a screen asking them to pick a strong password that they have never used before. That is asking a user to do something that the human brain cannot reasonably do for 99% of the population. At best, a browser or password manager will intervene at that point and pick the password for them. At worst, the user ignores the warning and picks the same password they use for everything else.
stiray · 5 years ago
> The same can be said of the password manager account. It's turtles all the way down.
What password manager account, what are you talking about? There is never any password manager account, yes, I have heard that some weird people are synchronizing their passwords to some strange 3rd party services but those don't matter. You have one password. Encryption password for login database and that one is local and never transmitted over the internet. If you know a password manager that provides this decryption password to their servers, please open the topic here and they will be bashed to hell for this.
I am a tad more strange, my password manager is synchronized with my sftp server using private key and I am not only randomizing the passwords for each site but also the email address (imagine sha(user+salt) + delimiter + sha(domain + master password)@mydomain.com). And I will never in my life use any SSO as they are mostly spyware designed for tracking users across the sites and certainly not for what they are advertised for. They will break with firefox latest addition? FINE! At least people will stop using them.
One thing are companies self hosted SSOs. Sure, I can trust those for company services. For anything else, like "login with google" or "login with facebook"? Yeah right, my hearth is jumping out of joy and barely waits to use it. It actually works in reverse, if you dont allow me to register using non SSO account (email, password) I wont use your service/webpage/whatever.
XCSme · 5 years ago
What about two-step verification via an Authenticator or SMS? Is that spyware? Or do you have a self-hosted solution for 2FA too?
jopsen · 5 years ago
> but they are also a huge vector for privacy-invasive ad-profiling
Do they actually do this? Also don't most of the big ones allow you to opt-out of personalized ads.
I like this because it's easier to have strong 2FA with backup codes on a few well protected accounts, than to do it for every tiny site.
xyzal · 5 years ago
With all respect, did you think of the consequences of you losing access to your login account?
vntok · 5 years ago
This is a feature in corporate contexts.
randomsearch · 5 years ago
a good password manager beats this hands down, for convenience, privacy, and security.
cortesoft · 5 years ago
It doesn't for corporate usage... having to create accounts for every new employee on every service you use, and then remove those accounts when someone leaves is not scalable. Having SSO is needed.
cakoose · 5 years ago
I use 1Password (and the browser extension) for all my passwords, but I still choose "Sign-in with Google" when that's an option.
The "Sign-in with Google" button is makes it much quicker to create an account and slightly quicker to log in.
Also, I can rely on my Google 2FA rather than setting up and filling in a different TOTP for each site. Something like U2F or WebAuthn would make the filling-in part more convenient, but even sites that offer 2FA usually don't offer those. (And many sites don't even offer 2FA.)
Using 1Password's 2FA feature would make TOTP more convenient, but I'm a little nervous about putting 2FA in 1Password. This might be overly-conservative thinking, though.
mNovak · 5 years ago
I agree it can be super convenient, though 'Sign in with Google' is totally broken for me, because I've accumulated a handful of google accounts.
Every time I log in to a service, I have to guess which account it's associated with (bearing in mind I may have signed up years ago). And if I'm wrong, half the time it immediately attempts to create a new account, and then I'm stuck with a bunch of empty dummy accounts on various services.
llarsson · 5 years ago
> Don't use [third-party login providers], it's a trap.
Pretty hard to avoid in many cases. Logging in to your Microsoft account for Office (Teams, Outlook, et al.) uses a login service, as does Google, and practically all services that span across multiple domains. Which includes all of the major ones, at this point.
Good that Firefox gives us this option, given how the web has evolved!
sudosysgen · 5 years ago
I have no choice but to. The school services I must use are all tied into O365.
DavideNL · 5 years ago
>> Total Cookie Protection creates a separate cookie jar for each website you visit.
> This should have always been the only way it worked. Every website should run like if it was opened in a separate browser.
FYI: Extension "Temporary Containers" does this: https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/temporary-con...
nimbius · 5 years ago
the most aggravating trend Firefox jumped on was making the option to allow-list cookies a byzantine and infuriating process from what it used to be.
If you want to reject all cookies and allow-list only a handful of sites, youll need to go into privacy settings and choose a "custom" option to reject all cookies. presumably you're knowledgeable if youre here but if not, theres a scary warning that tells you doing this will "cause websites to break." Once thats done, reload your tabs and realize that if you choose "allow all cookies" at a later date, switching back to the "custom" setting doesnt return you to your former "block all cookies," just the watery default of blocking some cookies.
now if you want to allow-list a site, good luck. You cant use add-ons to do it and theres no menu option to quickly accomplish this anymore. open your settings again, under privacy, and custom settings again, and youre faced with a form to enter your new site. once you add the site to the list, you must hit save. Yes, the site is in the list now, but unless you hit save, you didnt add it.
Now arguably firefox cracked down on cookie block/allow capability at the behest of google and advertisers some years ago but to see them doubling back on the cookie issue --not to fix the blocklist feature but to nanny-state your cookie preferences even further-- is a real slap in the face.
stop tip toeing around the issue to appease advertisers. Let us block what we want to quickly and easily.
mattowen_uk · 5 years ago
Other than this is how cookies should have worked from the get-go, I have a question/scenario:
1. User visits site-a.com, which sets a cookie containing 'ThisIsUser9'
2. site-a.com also rewrites every external URL on the page, with a new param '&adtrack=ThisIsUser9'
3. User clicks on external link on site-a.com and goes to site-b.com
4. site-b.com's server sees the adtrack param on the end of the URL and sets a cookie 'ThisIsUser9' and also adds the adtrack param to all external URLs on the returned page.
5. Advertising company works with site-a and site-b (and many many other sites) to build up a persistent profile of your browsing habits.
We can't stop this, even with this new FF cookie isolation. Those of us who care will install an extension to strip known trackers from all URLs, and 90% of all other web users, will still be tracked as usual.
Face it, the private web is lost. :(
pantulis · 5 years ago
Isn't this more or less how tracking used to work before the days of adservers and programmatic advertising?
randomsearch · 5 years ago
this doesn't work if I don't go to site-a.com first
most of the time I go direct to a URL by typing in the address bar
> Face it, the private web is lost.
this reads like marketing for Eric Schmidt https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2009/12/google-ceo-eric-schmid...
alkonaut · 5 years ago
> site-b.com's server sees
I can at least SEE that siteA passes my information to siteB. Or at least that it passes something (e.g. a huge base64 chunk in the url). That's a big step forward. I can also block the referrer headers so it's not visible in siteA url itself. If I want to navigate from SiteA to SiteB and the url doesn't look "expected", I can choose to not click it. Tracking that only takes place in URLS and only when I click things, isn't nearly as scary or problematic as cookies.
CRConrad · 5 years ago
There is a solution, but it's somewhat clumsy compared to just right-click, "Open in new tab / window": Right-click, "Copy URL", paste into a text editor, remove any suspicious bits, copy what's left, go back to the browser, open a new tab / window, paste in your sanitized URL.
No, I don't think anyone does that with every damn link. I sure don't.
nashashmi · 5 years ago
I preferred chrome cookie control over Firefox after switching. (I have had to compromise with umatrix to fill this feature gap.) Very granular control for each cookie where a cookie can be allowed, temporary, or blocked.
I went through my entire list of cookies once, 400 at least and started perma blocking all those I didn’t recognize. It was beautiful. I can’t do the same in Firefox.
I’m not feeling very good about this move where third party cookies are isolated by website. There are lots of websites separated across multiple domain names sometimes unrelated. (Sharepoint, office 365) they will have difficulty.
And then there are special login websites and others like dish network telling CNN you have a subscription with them.
This breaks. And creates a predetermined list of who can do what.
quesera · 5 years ago
> I went through my entire list of cookies once, 400 at least and started perma blocking all those I didn’t recognize. It was beautiful. I can’t do the same in Firefox.
If I understand your description correctly, you can definitely do this in Firefox also. Preferences/Privacy & Security/Cookies and Site Data.
foepys · 5 years ago
> I went through my entire list of cookies once, 400 at least and started perma blocking all those I didn’t recognize. It was beautiful. I can’t do the same in Firefox.
I did this in Firefox before Chrome was even a thing. This has been supported natively without add-ons since at least 3.5, if not even earlier.
http://kb.mozillazine.org/Websites_report_cookies_are_disabl...
nashashmi · 5 years ago
That would be under "Cookies and Site Data". There are two options: Manage cookies (which only give option to remove cookies) and Manage Exception (which require you to manually add domain names. This is not usable for massive cookie block list.
nashashmi · 5 years ago
That would be under "Cookies and Site Data". There are two options: Manage cookies (which only give option to remove cookies) and Manage Exception (which require you to manually add domain names. This is not usable for massive cookie block list.
taneq · 5 years ago
Did this update also re-enable sponsored links on new tabs? They just popped up on all of my computers. Mostly I think Firefox is great but things like this annoy me.
Nicksil · 5 years ago
I caught this as well. Fixed it by deselecting "Sponsored Top Sites" option from within Options > Home > Firefox Home Content > Top Sites.
Even though I had "Top Sites" already deselected, I had to temporarily select that options in order to deselect the "Sponsored Top Sites" option.
jijji · 5 years ago
no mention about cookies shared by subdomains of a domain, are these still supported by this feature?
BiteCode_dev · 5 years ago
Is Total Cookie Protection a Mozilla Intellectual Property ?
In short, should I say we are talking about TCP/IP ?
bpicolo · 5 years ago
> Total Cookie Protection makes a limited exception for cross-site cookies when they are needed for non-tracking purposes, such as those used by popular third-party login providers
How does this work out? Say I want to launch a new popular login provider - how do I get past the Firefox gatekeeper?
jefftk · 5 years ago
It isn't based on a list of login providers, instead there are temporary heuristics: https://hacks.mozilla.org/2021/02/introducing-state-partitio...
In the Firefox storage access policy, we have defined several heuristics to address Web compatibility issues. The heuristics are designed to catch the most common scenarios of using third-party storage on the web (outside of tracking) and allow storage access in order to make websites continue normally. For example, in Single-Sign-On flows it is common to open a popup that allows the user to sign in, and transmit that sign-in information back to the website that opened the popup. Firefox will detect this case and automatically grant storage access.
Note that these heuristics are not designed for the long term. Using the Storage Access API is the recommended solution for websites that need unpartitioned access. We will continually evaluate the necessity of the restrictions and remove them as appropriate. Therefore, developers should not rely on them now or in the future.
bpicolo · 5 years ago
Perfect context - thanks!
That said, hopefully that doesn't start a new cat and mouse game for ad networks? hah
jefftk · 5 years ago
The heuristics seem pretty intrusive, so I doubt most ad networks would be interested in trying to meet them.
tannhaeuser · 5 years ago
Wondering if we can get our sane olde Web back by piecemeal subtraction of all the stuff of the 2010's, and starting over. Makes browsers much simpler, too.
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
There's an opportunity for this to happen by taking some time to just read through CSS 2.1 and implement the renderer. So much of the web is driven by that portion of spec alone. Then, you could tack on whatever other programming language you wanted to play around with. It doesn't even necessarily have to be JavaScript.
Most people don't even succeed implementing CSS 2.1, though. It takes a non-neglible amount of time.
deagle50 · 5 years ago
Amazing, thank you. Does this also isolate cache, IndexDB, LocalStorage, plugin data, and service workers?
tuxone · 5 years ago
Http cached assets are already isolated as part of Firefox First-Party Isolation.
deagle50 · 5 years ago
The idea here is to avoid using FPI.
IMTDb · 5 years ago
Great ! Can we now remove all these cookie banners that have been plaguing the web since a pencil pusher in the EU thought it would a great idea to force every single website to display an annoying popup.
kleiba · 5 years ago
The better way to do this would be if you could configure your preferences once and for all in the client which then transparently communicates it to the website providers.
tcit · 5 years ago
The DoNotTrack header didn't work.
kleiba · 5 years ago
But there is a difference between a volunteer action by some browser developers, and the law. I think the bigger problem is that there are different policies in place in different legislation, so it would be very challenging to implement something that satisfies the needs.
belorn · 5 years ago
Simple, make a law that makes consent via banners invalid.
thitcanh · 5 years ago
I just imagined that video of a cat in zero-gravity
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
Spoiler alert: we have that law. The GDPR as it stands outlaws annoying/misleading consent banners.
Next step: fire the incompetent people staffing the various data protection agencies and replace them with someone that would actually enforce said law.
SamuelAdams · 5 years ago
jx47 · 5 years ago
These banners are there to fool you into accepting all cookies. They are basically a dark pattern at this point. The GDPR and the so called cookie law state that strictly functional cookies have implicit consent by the visitor. Even selfhosted tracking via cookies is considered functional. The GDPR/cookie law also does not enforce those banners. They only state that the user has to consent to every form of tracking.
So every time you see one of these huge banners it is the deliberate effort by the website owner to trick you into accepting the tracking.
marshray · 5 years ago
Nobody wants to argue with GDPR regulators which cookies are "strictly necessary" and they certainly don't want to pay lawyers to review the purpose and use of every cookie.
It's not a trick, it's just that the easiest path for all sites to comply is to obtain blanket consent for everything.
Classic perverse incentive.
jefftk · 5 years ago
This change is about blocking third-party cookies, while cookie banners also include notification around first party cookies.
For example, first-party cookies used to implement analytics are included. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy_and_Electronic_Communi...
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
This is guaranteed to break old software out there. Not in a minor way, but in a large amount of billable work type of way.
This is almost the type of change in a browser that should require browser vendors to start providing a backwards compatibility mode.
sudhirj · 5 years ago
So we have a suite of B2B products, hosted on p1.com, p2.com, p3.com, with an OAuth2 provider on a1.com. a1.com isn't very "well known", and it won't be, because we run it privately for auth and user management for our own products only. There are no subdomains anywhere, only individual domains.
Does this break our setup? And how do we tell users to un-break it? And is there a way to tell Mozilla via directives that we have a private list of sites we'd like to share a1.com cookies in?
michaelt · 5 years ago
No, it's still easy to perform oauth2 login.
User clicks log in at p1.com, they get forwarded to a1.com which checks their (now first-party) cookies, then once they're logged in they get forwarded back to p1.com with a token in an URL parameter.
sudhirj · 5 years ago
Ah, right, thanks. So this is a problem only if we have in-page widgets from a1.com that load on p1.com and hope to find a the currently logged in user there. Makes sense, that's basically what an ad is.
kevin_thibedeau · 5 years ago
This weakens security. Now auth tokens can be logged or actively intercepted on corporate networks with TLS MITM and these URLs will eventually find their way into emails and other unencrypted locations. Not exactly progress.
SilverRed · 5 years ago
If you have TLS MITM malware on your computer than security is already dead.
michaelt · 5 years ago
The behaviour with third party cookies blocked is how oauth2 works by design.
Even without third party cookie blocking, if you're at p1.com and you click to log in with a1.com but you're not logged into a1.com yet, you get forwarded to a1.com to sign in.
So with third party cookies blocked, it's no less secure than it was before.
ThePhysicist · 5 years ago
Safari solves this by sending third-party cookies only if the user visited the originating domain within 24 hours.
Not sure how Firefox handles this but I guess it would be easy to detect a redirect from a1.com to p1.com and recognize this as a use-case where a third-party cookie from p1.com should be sent for a request originating from a1.com.
That said it's probably more privacy-friendly to append an access token as a hash parameter to the URL when redirecting and extract it via JS, which will not be affected by cookie limitations.
hwc · 5 years ago
What they describe is how I thought cookies worked already.
aecorredor · 5 years ago
Same here.
"That’s because the prevailing behavior of web browsers allows cookies to be shared between websites, thereby enabling those who would spy on you to “tag” your browser and track you as you browse."
Is that true though? I thought it was well known that you can only access cookies from your own domain: https://stackoverflow.com/questions/12370495/share-a-cookie-...
callmeal · 5 years ago
>Is that true though? I thought it was well known that you can only access cookies from your own domain:
That's where ad networks come in. A cookie set by <adtracker> when you're browsing say nytimes.com, will be sent to that <adtracker> when you're browsing say reddit.com and that's how the adtracker know's it's the same person on both sites.
rank0 · 5 years ago
> In addition, Total Cookie Protection makes a limited exception for cross-site cookies when they are needed for non-tracking purposes, such as those used by popular third-party login providers.
Oh, so like Facebook and Google?
sudosysgen · 5 years ago
There is no allowlist. The tracking supercookies from FB and Google should be blocked, only those detected to be for sso using a common heuristic are allowed.
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
What prevents them from adapting and using the SSO cookie as a tracking vector? Why are we assuming they aren't doing this already?
sudosysgen · 5 years ago
Then they get put in a blocklist and only redirect based SSO is allowed.
That being said, if I understood right, as long as you don't use sso it shouldn't allow them.
colinclerk · 5 years ago
Great privacy-focused launch, Firefox!
If anyone wants to see these protections in action, www.clerk.dev leverages the Storage Access API in development mode - where we need to share session data across localhost and a clerk-owned domain.
With this launch, developers are now prompted to explicitly allow third-party cookie access in Firefox.
(In production mode, the prompt isn't thrown because our cookies are set in a first party context.)
anotheryou · 5 years ago
It's the same thing chrome wants to roll out, right?
Doesn't this push advertisers towards fingerprinting which we absolutely don't have any good countermeasures against yet?
flerchin · 5 years ago
Don't we? We can reduce the amount of info that the browser provides. Done.
anotheryou · 5 years ago
Not sure, how does the tor browser score in these fingerprinting tests?
Looked like you loose quite a bit of functionality. Would be nice to have tor-browser like safety and a permission for "use advanced browser stuff that might enable fingerprinting" so you can trust certain sites where you need it.
edit: watching this now :)
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
Is there a reason why uBlock Origin is still not included in the browser? In this day and age, you can't have privacy online without it, and claiming otherwise is misleading at best and maliciously deceptive at worst.
hertzrat · 5 years ago
Maliciously deceptive is pretty strong wording
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
I'd argue that this is justified when it comes to misleading non-technical users about their privacy.
Mozilla plasters the word "privacy" everywhere and yet opens their own website on first run and after every update which includes Google Analytics, from the same company that's known to violate people's privacy on a large scale and profit from it.
Browser fingerprinting and IP-based tracking is reliable enough that blocking cookies is absolutely useless in this day and age against an omnipresent adversary such as Google & Facebook. Blocking their request uBlock Origin-style is the only way to go and claiming to protect your privacy otherwise is very misleading.
Wxc2jjJmST9XWWL · 5 years ago
Not affiliated with Mozilla, nor do I know, but my thoughts:
A quick check reveals that while ublock origin seems to be the most popular, it's by far not the only popular add-on to block ads https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/search/?q=adblock ; so why include ublock origin specifically? Especially since it has become much more than a simple adblocker (script blocking capabilities for example), why not something else? Why not integrate an ad-blocker developed completely by mozilla?
Why not include NoScript + Containers by default? And some UserAgent Switch capability? And more fine grained cookie storage options (currently available via add-ons), et cetera?
When you start integrating capabilities currently being offered by add-ons, the questions are :
- where to stop
- how to discriminate what to include, what not
- how will users and developers feel (for example the user who wants to use his favorite add-on, which now is not developed anymore because almost no one bothers to install it since functionality X has become part of the browser)
- how to deal with edge cases (the one site which breaks because of ad-block is the reason a non-technical person might simply install chrome and move on with their life)
- is the increasing complexity worth it? to what degree is it?
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
> why include ublock origin specifically
A lot of the other ad blocking extensions are malicious and collude with the advertising industry through some kind of whitelist program. Their license might also not be permissive enough to allow this.
> Why not include NoScript + Containers by default?
NoScript requires lots of manual intervention, uBlock Origin with the default lists is still seamless and rarely causes breakage thus very little need for manual intervention.
I am not convinced that Containers does anything at all. Browser fingerprinting & IP address tracking defeats it very easily.
> And some UserAgent Switch capability
This is absolutely needed and I'm baffled this isn't offered natively, though this would be less for privacy and more as a developer tool.
> And more fine grained cookie storage options (currently available via add-ons), et cetera?
I find the whole craze around cookies overblown. Your IP address is a relatively persistent cookie you can't clear. The only way is to prevent requests made to the malicious actors to begin with, with some kind of blacklist like what uBlock Origin provides.
> how to discriminate what to include, what not
I'd argue that if your mission is to make the web better and protect people's privacy then including a proper ad blocker is a no brainer.
> does it do any good
That is up to discussion with the add-on author (the author of UBO has repeatedly declined donations and seems to be doing his efforts out of passion and/or hatred for ads, so he should be onboard), but otherwise, the secret sauce isn't really the blocker per-se but the blocklists such as EasyList/Fanboy's lists, and Mozilla has enough resources to reimplement a compatible client from scratch if needed.
> how to deal with edge cases
Contribute back to the lists to fix any edge-cases by adjusting an over-reaching blocking rule, and offer an easy way for users to temporarily disable the blocking on a per-site basis.
godshatter · 5 years ago
> I find the whole craze around cookies overblown. Your IP address is a relatively persistent cookie you can't clear. The only way is to prevent requests made to the malicious actors to begin with, with some kind of blacklist like what uBlock Origin provides.
In my personal opinion, no one should be connecting to the internet in this day and age without using a VPN service wherever possible.
_-david-_ · 5 years ago
My preference would be to include the functionality of ad blockers but not include any of the actual lists. You would then be able to pull down the same lists that ublock origin provides by default and add any additional lists you want.
Jerry2 · 5 years ago
>Is there a reason why uBlock Origin is still not included in the browser?
Once you look into where Mozilla gets their money from, you'll find millions of reasons.
And in the past, Mozilla has stated that bundling ad blocking with the browser would 'hurt the Internet'.
SilverRed · 5 years ago
They may find that websites, along with their adblock blockers, will just add the firefox useragent to the block list.
skyzadev · 5 years ago
Why has it taken us so long to get features like this implemented?
p.s. Firefox ftw :).
baggy_trough · 5 years ago
This seems like a nicer solution than Safari, which is blocking even session cookies in third party iframes. Makes it hard to have a multi-page browser game embedded in gaming sites.
7800 · 5 years ago
That’s wonderful!
Now, if Mozilla would allow Firefox to be configured such that it doesn’t call home or update itself in any way, that would be nice also, as I don’t see why Mozilla needs to know about me either.
InTheArena · 5 years ago
If you care about using a open, secure and not surveillance driven Internet and you are using Chrome rather then Firefox (or Safari or even Edge) you are part of the problem rather then the solution. That said, I run on Mac and on Linux. in both places, Firefox is roughly the same speed, but dramatically better privacy. The internet is a awful place without containers for isolating google and facebook.
anticristi · 5 years ago
Is this really effective for the users' privacy? Won't AdTech networks simply migrate to browser fingerprinting, perhaps with a bit of server-side tracking?
I'm not arguing to give up. Rather, I'm more convinced in investing in privacy NGOs like noyb.eu and make it expensive to toy with my privacy.
glsdfgkjsklfj · 5 years ago
> Won't AdTech networks simply migrate to browser fingerprinting, perhaps with a bit of server-side tracking?
they don't even have to. Just store two (or N) sets of cookie trails as they already do. This will waste a few MB of storage on the client side and do nothing to Ad/privacy.
Sites never shared the ID anyway, specially since GDPR-et-al.
AD tech works like this: you send a hash of one ID and on the backend attach all the profile info (nobody will ever share that with partners, because that is gold), then the other side just assign their own hash of their ID and also keep all their targeting info on their backend. The only thing that matters is that party A ID123 is known to match party B IDabc. Note that those IDs are transient and set at random, because party A and party B doesn't want to give up their secret info by matching IDs from multiple sites. That is called cookie match. it does NOT depend on a single cookie jar. It doesn't even depend on cookies! why do you think most Ads (and google search result links -ha!) have those weird hashs appended? zero cookies needed)
Another thing that helps even more than 3rd party cookie is multi-site referrer, but google killed that on both chromium and firefox a long time ago (firefox still have the about:config way to disable/set to single-site, set to multi-site-domain-only, but good luck finding a single human who changes that setting by selecting magic numbers)
glsdfgkjsklfj · 5 years ago
btw, the only way to fix this mess and not break the internet in the short term is to fix the UI. not the black magic hidden from the user.
Just show 1st class useful controls on the browser UI for cookies and the problem solves itself. what EU cookie law should have been.
Every user understands "site A wants to store a save file" "site A wants to access save file". Nobody understands cookies and same-origin and cors.
anticristi · 5 years ago
Yeah, the cookie law was a false start. Laypeople don't care about the exact technical implementation (e.g., session cookies vs. persistent cookies vs. local storage vs. browser fingerprinting).
What I care as a EU citizen: Are you collecting and storing information that can directly or indirectly identify me? Yes, tracking and profiling are included in this.
You want to store some session cookies, so you remember my shopping cart? Go ahead!
You want to store some cookies, so you remember I was logged in? Sure!
You want to use every available technological loophole to follow my every path on the Internet? Errrr, no thanks!
josho · 5 years ago
I see this as a test of government. A well functioning government will iterate on their laws and see what they got right/wrong and improve it.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for a GDPR 1.1 that patches some of the things they got wrong.
anticristi · 5 years ago
I think the cookie law is somewhat meah, but I feel GDPR is pretty future proof. I don't expect GDPR to change a lot, rather our application of it (so-called ECJ recitals) will evolve.
Wouldn't you agree?
jefftk · 5 years ago
This is wrong: third party cookies are still widely used in the ad industry. Among other things, the cookie matching that you describe is dramatically more effective with third-party cookies than first-party only.
(Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)
glsdfgkjsklfj · 5 years ago
never said it is not widely used or not effective.
Just saying that it won't matter much if removed from the equation.
I mean, if something makes your life easier, you would be a fool to not use it. but that is like saying not having a ferrari prevents you from driving to the store.
jefftk · 5 years ago
Third party cookies are not simply a matter of making adtech developer's lives easier. Imagine you visit shoes.example and are now on news.example. Both of these sites work with ads.example, and the shoe site would like to show you a shoe ad.
With third party cookies this looks like (simplified MVP form):
1. When you visited shoes.example, it loaded a pixel from ads.example. That pixel automatically sent your ads.example cookie, and put you on a remarketing list.
2. When you visit news.example, it sent an ad request to ads.example, which also automatically sent your ads.example cookie. Now the ad tech vendor knows to include the ad from the shoe site because it recognizes the third-party cookie.
On the other hand, without third-party cookies or any replacement browser APIs, how do these identities get joined? Very occasionally someone will follow a link between a pair of sites, and then you can join first party identities, but you probably don't have a chain of identities that connects a news.example first-party identity to a shoes.example identity.
Arnavion · 5 years ago
>On the other hand, without third-party cookies or any replacement browser APIs, how do these identities get joined?
1. When you visit shoes.example, it has an iframe to show an ad from ads.example. This iframe runs some JS to compute a browser fingerprint and then nests an iframe to hxxps://ads.example/?target=shoes.example&client=$fingerprint . The ads.example server records that this fingerprint has visited shoes.example
2. When you visit news.example, it has an iframe to show an ad from ads.example. This iframe runs some JS to compute a browser fingerprint and then nests an iframe to hxxps://ads.example/?target=news.example&client=$fingerprint . The ads.example server recognizes the fingerprint, knows that the client visited shoes.example earlier, and returns a shoes ad.
jefftk · 5 years ago
My parent claimed this was possible to do with link decoration and first party cookie matching, and I'm saying it isn't.
I do agree this is possible to do with fingerprints, though (a) all the browsers are trying to prevent fingerprinting and (b) a reputable ad company would not use fingerprints for targeting. This is my understanding of why Google is putting so much effort into https://github.com/WICG/turtledove
(Still speaking only for myself)
anticristi · 5 years ago
Thanks for the description! I would love to read a longer post on the topic with an MVP implementation / demo.
glsdfgkjsklfj · 5 years ago
right, if you know how cookies and urls work, all that can happen with zero cookies and some query parameters, like the ones google search surreptitious add on every search result.
cookie synch, It's a freaking industry standard. And you want us to believe google money cow will dry as soon as the effort they are leading goes live?
jefftk · 5 years ago
No, it is not possible to remarket at any meaningful scale with "zero cookies and some query parameters" (though Arnavion's sibling comment is correct that it can be done with fingerprinting). Would you be up for describing how you'd do it in the shoes.example/news.example/ads.example case?
> you want us to believe google money cow will dry as soon as the effort they are leading goes live?
"we are confident that with continued iteration and feedback, privacy-preserving and open-standard mechanisms like the Privacy Sandbox can sustain a healthy, ad-supported web in a way that will render third-party cookies obsolete. Once these approaches have addressed the needs of users, publishers, and advertisers, and we have developed the tools to mitigate workarounds, we plan to phase out support for third-party cookies in Chrome. Our intention is to do this within two years." -- https://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-...
They are describing adding new capabilities to the browser that would make this possible, in a privacy preserving way. Ex, https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/master/FLEDGE.md
(Still speaking only for myself)
glsdfgkjsklfj · 5 years ago
hint: the same way attribution happened in the early days.
google sends id abc to shoes.com and id xyz to news.com. both sends those ids back to google's own adserver. presto, google knows you are seeing those two ads.
cmonnow · 5 years ago
This is basically Google (Chrome) paying Mozilla (Firefox) to kill 3rd party cookies because Google has a better way to fingerprint users without 3rd party cookies, because they have SO MUCH data about us.
This move is aimed at killing other AdTech companies which rely on 3rd party cookies to track users.
They painting this as a 'PRIVACY' move, after they have already found other ways of tracking users across websites and devices.
teknopaul · 5 years ago
Another feature, that no one asked for, that breaks stuff. Every site that mozilla breaks is one more nail in its coffin. Speed is your second requirement, then security, then privacy: the first requirement is alway that the bludy websites work. When mozilla lost track of this and prioritiezed security then privacy then performance, and finally/ maybe letting you get your job done, their market share started to fall. The world needs an alternative to google's vertical. One that actually works.
orblivion · 5 years ago
Maybe I don't know enough about cookies but it's kind of shocking that that this wasn't the behavior from day one. I suppose it's one of many things designed for a simpler time, but so many of those have been fixed by now.
foepys · 5 years ago
There is so much legacy tech out there that is still working on the trust level from back when DNS was a hosts file you manually copied to your system once in a while.
BGP and SS7 are other famous examples.
bscphil · 5 years ago
Kind of an important point: this appears to be an attempt to make third party cookies useless, without actually disabling them since many sites depend on them. This is achieved in two ways:
1. By allowing third party cookies, but compartmentalizing them by the first-party site that sent the request (a much better name for this feature would be "per-site cookie containers", "total cookie protection" is completely uninformative).
2. By using a heuristic to selectively allow cookies to be accessed across the container boundary if they are actually needed, e.g. for logins.
To answer your question, this doesn't make sense as "day one behavior" because it's basically a patch to work around a historical problem with as little breakage as possible. If you were setting up cookie permissions on day one, knowing what we know now, you wouldn't kneecap third party cookies, you'd disable them entirely. Mozilla is trying to make third party cookies useless for 99% of what they're used for: if that's how you feel about third party cookies, you'd just not implement them.
Incidentally, I do block all third party cookies by default and have for years. That's a much stronger approach than the compartmentalization that Mozilla is attempting. I can count on one hand the number of sites I've seen break because of this, most of them are happy to let these cookies fail silently.
FalconSensei · 5 years ago
That's kinda nice, maybe someday I'll try FF again.
Unfortunately, every time I try, the usability and flows are - for me - lacking. Like, not being able to easily add and edit search engines (adding search for amazon, youtube, etc), history and bookmarks not opening in full tab by default, closed tabs and windows being separated on history...
baggy_trough · 5 years ago
The main thing I don't like about FF is that the UI is kind of blocky and clunky looking compared to Safari or Chrome. (This is on macOS.)
A trivial example of missing UI polish - when you open "About Firefox" after restarting the browser, the window always appears in the top left for a split second, then moves to the center.
CobrastanJorji · 5 years ago
I like this idea a lot. One thing I'm confused about, though. Does this also apply to CORS requests? If A.com sends a withCredentials CORS request to tracker.com, won't the tracker.com cookies still be sent?
jefftk · 5 years ago
No, the cookies won't be sent. That would defeat the whole purpose.
CobrastanJorji · 5 years ago
So this effectively eliminates the "XMLHttpRequest.withCredentials" setting? Interesting! Thanks for clarifying.
jefftk · 5 years ago
No, is still has an effect. CORS operates on a per-origin basis, while privacy mitigations operate on a per-site basis. You might want withCredentials if www.site.example wanted to share cookies with forums.site.example.
gegtik · 5 years ago
Awesome work - in retrospect it seems insane it took the world until 2021 to think about this in-hindsight obvious solution for responsible data segregation.
CyberRabbi · 5 years ago
My total cookie protection: turn off cookies for casual browsing
stylemilzy111 · 5 years ago
I wan't to connect my account but I can't do it i don't have the screen to tap the verificator code of apple I'd help me
djschnei · 5 years ago
It's too bad Mozilla supports internet censorship... Some good alternatives if there stance on deplatforming is unacceptable to you: https://librewolf-community.gitlab.io/ https://brave.com/
Nextgrid · 5 years ago
Can you elaborate? Why do you think they support censorship?
koheripbal · 5 years ago
I suspect he is referring to this blog post...
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2021/01/08/we-need-more-than-d...
djschnei · 5 years ago
Correct! Relevant thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25690941
anderspitman · 5 years ago
So is Mozilla going to start gatekeeping which login providers are considered big/reputable enough? What if I want to make my own login provider?
fay59 · 5 years ago
It sounds like you can design a login provider around that: direct to login site with a return address, confirm with user they want to log in, post back to return address with token that allows site to query login provider.
eslaught · 5 years ago
What's the relationship of this with privacy.firstparty.isolate?
thinkharderdev · 5 years ago
First party site isolation is more thorough than just blocking third party cookies: https://2019.www.torproject.org/projects/torbrowser/design/#...
Basically, everything is isolated to the first party domain (the domain of the URL in the address bar), including content caches, HTTP/2 connections, local storage, preferences, etc.
deagle50 · 5 years ago
Does cookie isolation work with "Custom" tracking protection selected?
appleflaxen · 5 years ago
> We also want to acknowledge past and ongoing work by colleagues in the Brave, Chrome, and Safari teams to develop state partitioning in their own browsers.
Classy call-out
urza · 5 years ago
This should have always been the only way it worked. Plus it should be easier to create white lists of allowed websites and all other cookies delete with every broswer restart. I know it is possible with Firefox but you need to add websites to whitelist manually in deep settings. At least there are some extensions that make it easier, like CookieAutoDelete https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/cookie-autode...
1vuio0pswjnm7 · 5 years ago
I control cookies outside the browser, in a forward proxy. I can allow/deny any cookie based on rules I set. I value privacy protection against a browser vendor just as much as privacy protection against advertisers (who keep browser vendors in business). I do not trust the browser. I trust the proxy. That's how I get "Total Cookie Protection".
julianlam · 5 years ago
Does anybody know whether this would complicate existing implementations of session sharing via a shared cookie?
For example, a site a.example.org may save a cookie for domain .example.org, and b.example.org would be able to read it. Site A would then be able to provide some information for Site B to consume, such as logged in state or ID.
From the sounds of it, this total cookie protection feature will essentially not allow this implementation to work.
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
I'm fairly sure this pertains moreso to divisions between hostnames.
julianlam · 5 years ago
Could be, but there are also cases where sites under the same domain differentiate between customers via subdomain.
A quick example of the top of my head being github.io...
shuringai · 5 years ago
users can already get this behaviour by setting 2 values in about:config why is this presented as new feature? mozilla laid off devs to start making marketing stunts?
jonplackett · 5 years ago
It’s kind of ridiculous that it didn’t work this way to begin with.
SilverRed · 5 years ago
To begin with the web was full of academic pages that weren't trying to spy on you
jonplackett · 5 years ago
Did they actually have cookies that far back?
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
There's a lot of comments in here about how it's bad that cookies haven't always worked this way, but a significant amount of web content to this day still requires third-party cookies to work. And I'm not talking about cookies that are designed for analytics purposes; the discussions here where concern is raised revolve around simple things like logins breaking.
For greenhorn web developers, you could say the same thing about TLS certificates. Why weren't they always free?
Well, another reason is because TLS (and formerly SSL) wasn't (weren't) just about encryption, but about a "web of trust." Encryption alone isn't trust.
Many things about web technologies have changed over time; and it's easy to say that any individual piece of functionality should have worked this or that way all along, but the original intent of many web features and how those features are used today can be very different.
One day industry standards may dictate that we don't even process HTTPS requests in a way where the client's IP address is fully exposed to the server. Someone along the way might decide that a trusted agent should serve pages back on behalf of a client, for all clients.
After all, why should a third-party pixel.png request expose me browsing another website?! How absurd. Don't you think? And yet, we do it every day.
tvprod1203 · 5 years ago
> Well, another reason is because TLS (and formerly SSL) wasn't (weren't) just about encryption, but about a "web of trust." Encryption alone isn't trust.
Which is a nice principle, but given corporate and government incentives, the trust provided was lackluster at best. The PKI is pretty much broken because of it.
In the end, all it did is incur an unaffordable cost for hobbyist bloggers and other netizens.
Spivak · 5 years ago
Yeah, in the end it’s silly that we ended up with “trust” meaning only you’re connected to someone that controls the domain” which doesn’t actually need PKI to accomplish if we just supported a SRV record with the public key(s) and verifiably authoritative DNS queries.
Which fair it’s trading one PKI for another but web servers vastly outnumber authoritative DNS servers. But DKIM gets along fine without it so we probably could too.
account42 · 5 years ago
Well there is DANE but browser support is unfortunately missing.
Thorrez · 5 years ago
You used to be able to simply install a Firefox extension[1] or Android app[2] and automatically steal the accounts of everyone on your wifi network on every website. https stopped that.
Macha · 5 years ago
Widespread https did that. Firesheep motivated the big players to stop cheaping out and go fully https unlike approaches which did https for login pages only but it took let's encrypt also for https to become truly widespread
Thorrez · 5 years ago
100% agree
smichel17 · 5 years ago
> a significant amount of web content to this day still requires third-party cookies to work.
Not in the corners of the web I frequent. I've been blocking 3rd party cookies for years and the only site that's broken was some Pearson online homework site.
zaarn · 5 years ago
A lot of IDPs break. For example any website that presents "Login with Google" will not work or require a reload after completing the Auth flow before the login is accepted.
This isn't simply "blocking third party cookies", it's "even an iframe has no access to the other state partition". The third party cookie is allowed to exist but it cannot leak to other sites. However, this leak prevention breaks plenty of other things if one is not careful (Mozilla was, there is a heuristic).
laggyluke · 5 years ago
> "web of trust."
"Web of trust" is a pretty specific term that doesn't apply to TLS/SSL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_of_trust
Did you mean to say "public key infrastructure" (PKI)?
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
I'm having a bit of an old person moment, and I'm not really that old, but I recall SSL cert sales back in the day pushing trust over encryption.
I may be confusing the terms "chain of trust" and "web of trust," but to my best knowledge, I don't recall EVs being sold on the former term.
My apologies. I hope there are folks out there who have a better recollection who can piece this together.
arendtio · 5 years ago
Well, but there is nothing that makes it impossible to build logins and the like without 3rd party cookies. Yes, there are certain patterns out there, that use them, but slowly turning 3rd party cookies off and giving major sites time to adapt might help to dump 3rd party cookies one day completely.
I think the whole idea of sharing cookies across origins was a conceptual mistake right from the beginning, because it is also responsible for quite a lot of security vectors which had to be fixed by other mechanics like the SOP (Same Origin Policy) which in turn required mechanics like CORS (Cross Origin Resource Sharing).
And with all those mechanics in place, modern browsers are pretty tied up and are significantly reduced in their abilities compared to other HTTP/S clients. So when you want to build a PWA (Progressive Web App) that can use a configurable backend (as in federated), you will run into all kinds if problems, that can all be traced back to the decision to share cookies across origins.
andrewmcwatters · 5 years ago
My point is you can make these arguments all day. Why do we allow iframes? You could argue web servers should simply communicate among themselves and serve subdocuments to clients.
Why is HTTP/2 Server Push being rescinded?
Why do user agents not provide additional types for <script> based on runtime installations?
Why isn't there a renderer API that allows me to use painted trees in <canvas>, but there is a bluetooth API that no one uses?
arendtio · 5 years ago
I am not sure if I get your point then. I think it is important to see the patterns of bad decisions in the past to improve decision making in the future.
That those mistakes were not done deliberately and with good intentions is a completely different story and that in hindsight everything looks so clear is also well known ;-)
2OEH8eoCRo0 · 5 years ago
There sure is a lot of negativity for what seems like a good feature.
KeyBoardG · 5 years ago
I've been using an extension called Temporary Containers. Every site gets its unique instance and then it is destroyed afterwards.
infogulch · 5 years ago
This is great! I recently tried to this fudge behavior into firefox myself by using container tabs and temporary containers extensions. I wonder if these extensions would add any additional protection above strict mode now.
dkdbejwi383 · 5 years ago
How does Firefox 86 compare with Safari now for privacy, protection against tracking, etc?
subpixel · 5 years ago
FWIW this seems to have broken the NYTimes authentication system. I guess the question is, do they care?
monus · 5 years ago
I wonder if this will end up SSO providers selling this privilege to ad companies by allowing access.
tilolebo · 5 years ago
Does that mean retargeting won't work anymore on Firefox?
